Guest 4 - John Sutherland

John Sutherland joined the Metropolitan Police Service in 1992, serving as an officer for more than 25 years until his early retirement on medical grounds in 2018. 

He was awarded the ‘Baton of Honour’ as the outstanding recruit in his training school intake and, in the years that followed, rose through the ranks to become a highly respected senior officer. His last operational posting was as the Borough Commander for Southwark. He is an experienced Hostage and Crisis Negotiator, having served on both the national and international cadres.

John is the author of 'Blue: A Memoir’, a Sunday Times bestseller that was published in May 2017. His second book, ‘Crossing the Line’ was published in May 2020 and was picked as a BBC Radio 4 Book of the Week. 

He is a sought-after media commentator on matters relating to policing and society, regularly appearing on national radio and television and writing for a variety of national newspapers.

Guest 3 - Tracy Jones

Tracy has over 15 years' experience working within Anti-Social Behaviour and Community Safety Services. She has worked for Manchester City Council as well as Wigan Council. Tracy has successfully managed different teams within both a Local Authority and Social Housing context including the management of a front-line ASB service, ASB enforcement case management service, management of specialised  ASB projects. Tracy has strategic management expertise as well as an in depth understanding of community safety partnership working.


Tracy now works in the learning and development industry as a Digital Learning Consultant for Me Learning Ltd, providing digital learning solutions to many Public Sector clients. Tracy has recently led on the development of a new approach to delivering best practice casework training which is deployed via an online ASB Digital Learning programme and can be accessed by large numbers of people at any one time yet still delivers the high quality of traditional training methods.

Guest 2 - Paul Walmsley


Between 2006 and 2011, Paul was ‘Britain's Most Wanted’ - spending five years on the run from the police on European shores. Acknowledging the certainty of a lengthy spell in prison, he handed himself into the Police in 2011 and was sentenced to 10 years for a drugs conspiracy. Whilst in custody he awarded numerous accolades for creative writing and my published a book; Just an Ordinary  Decent Criminal which is a Koestler Trust, double-award winning piece which gained him a writing scholarship. The book reached number #3 in the Amazon Kindle rankings. Paul is now a qualified life coach, humanistic counsellor and NLP practitioner. Lecturing about the desistance theory (To desist from criminal behaviours by using educational creativity, the arts and music) in Universities across the north-west, he regularly participates in intervention projects in the Merseyside area to help and guide young people.

Guest 1 - Dr Grace Robinson

Dr Grace Robinson completed her PhD in 2019. Using Merseyside as a case study, her research focused on gangs, Child Criminal Exploitation and County Lines. Grace is the Executive Director of Black Box Research and Consultancy Ltd; a nationwide criminal justice consultancy providing Expert Witness Testimony, commissioned research and educational workshops. She is also employed by the University of Nottingham as a Rights Lab Research Fellow in Modern Slavery Perpetrators and Organised Crime, where she is researching the effect of Covid-19 on Child Criminal Exploitation and County Lines  drug supply. For the past five years, she has participated in interviews, podcasts, workshops and lectures to students, practitioners, faith groups and members of the public, and has been an invited speaker at numerous academic and practitioner conferences across the UK. 

Grace is able to offer independent Expert Witness Testimony on Criminal Exploitation, Forced Labour, County Lines drug supply and trafficking for the purposes of County Lines operations.